Volume 3: Intentions Entwined. Discussion Thread!

Have a take on the latest Prelude strip? Share it in here! Just notice an enticing story hint in one of the graphic novels? Speculate away! Share feedback, large and small about your DreamKeepers experience. But beware, this forum may contain story spoilers.

Re: Volume 3: Intentions Entwined. Discussion Thread!

Postby Twilight on Sun Feb 03, 2013 12:40 am

I actually have no idea. Dave's been gone the past couple of days, so I haven't been able to ask him because it WAS a big piece of critique that stood out to a bunch of people.
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Re: Volume 3: Intentions Entwined. Discussion Thread!

Postby TruthQuest on Sun Feb 03, 2013 12:43 am

Well now I get to wonder if there aren't any nightmare doppelgangers running around looking like the twins.
I mean she had to see them, unless they weren't home.
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Re: Volume 3: Intentions Entwined. Discussion Thread!

Postby Ice4smaster on Sun Feb 03, 2013 1:41 am

TruthQuest wrote:Eh, lets switch back to something about the story instead...
When Lilith and Namah are scroll-texting each other and Lilith is telling Namah to "make sure that Jeneviv and Kalei read [her/Lilith's] instructions before [she/Namah] leave[s]," they cant have not seen the twins for more than a week, what ever happened to them happened right before the novels, and one more thing, did Namah ever drop Cudd off?
:o


I've pointed out this, as for the parents... well might have some "likenes" between them and Calah as carrier No1 and ofspring No34535 on there list, but sure we dont know this, but a very good quastion what been up with them been totally unheard of or that they would be looking for them.

and yes this is a hole in the story, that Namah went see them, but i can forgive to it, i mean Namah going to the media is more important for this book then lets say what went down at Kalei's place with Vincent ( sure they have stuff to look after the place like the Viscont do ) but if there is an clue or such that heavily maters... flashbacks always could be called in, in a later story when this quastion comes right upfront.

As for folowing the story, i've had no issues at all. It's that theres tons of things going on now, as the whole city is like a bee hive, but if the story will focuse to the towers and the kids meet up, it be less "scattered" as then i can see the Torika, kids, and maybe Nightmares focused at instead every Protagonist individually as wee seen now. And yes wanna see V4 asap XD if a year time, it be very sweet hehe <3
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Re: Volume 3: Intentions Entwined. Discussion Thread!

Postby Mr Aerospace on Sun Feb 03, 2013 7:30 am

To answer Vader and Twi: Ok, I concede, I am in the wrong. As you say, a story like this should be a self contained piece without any reliance on external input. But, that being said, just because the extras shouldn't be critical to the main plot, doesn't necessarily render them totally pointless, or without their own merit either. I admit I tend to read a lot of that stuff and use it to try to jump ahead of the story, as is the case here with me jumping onto operation guillotine.

-As for Namah not having Dumbass; the fact that we don't see Cuddles' transport case when she leaves Mr Boore can be better explained by her means of entry far better than her exit! ;) It isn't necessarily missing, just out of view.
-As for the drop off; it is a weak point in the plot that there is no mention of her going to Kalei and Jen's place at all. There is however one indication that she gives Mace, "everyone is out to get us and all of our plans failed", which I take that to mean something went wrong there too.
-As for the twin's rather inexplicably silent abduction, I would suggest that when the only person who knows that something went wrong is a spymaster, then it's likely that there's something sinister at play.
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Re: Volume 3: Intentions Entwined. Discussion Thread!

Postby Twilight on Sun Feb 03, 2013 7:30 pm

So, it's information that needed to be there but wasn't inculded, basically. I wouldn't draw conclusions on anything, given that all the evidence to anything isn't evidence at all.

Namah may have said that later in the book, but there's also the point that by the time she goes to the tv station it's much later in the day, so what was she doing all that time?

... and then all the logic questions set in:

Where is the TV station? Why was this random kid allowed to walk into a TV studio? Or if not, how did she get inside and avoid any trouble? ("Because it's Namah" is not a good response). Given the danger they both obviously are in, why did Lilith and Namah think it was a good idea to split up like that? When Boore says "I'm paging security," why does no security come? Why did Namah think proposing "alternate endings" was a good idea?

And that's not even counting the kinds of questions someone who's never read Prelude would have. Like why would Boore know of Lilith but not Namah? for example.

Though I must say, I did get a kick out of Boore spelling things out for Namah, calling her a self-infatuated shmuck that think's she's somehow more important than everyone else and deserves special treatment, when she's really just another peddler... that was delicious.
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Re: Volume 3: Intentions Entwined. Discussion Thread!

Postby Mr Aerospace on Mon Feb 04, 2013 11:48 am

I don't know what happened with Namah's missing time. We're all presumably guessing she went to the Twins place first. Whether she did or not, or even how that escapade unfolded and why it was not even shown or mentioned is beyond us all. What I am suggesting though is that the only shred of evidence we get that anything happened is that Namah said everything failed. The non-existence of Vincent or his cage during the studio scene can be explained away given her means of entry; via the duct almost immediately in front of Boore's door. Not only is it unlikely she would get detected entering the studio from there, but neither would she be likely to remove Dumbass' cage from the duct if it were even there with her at all. As for Boore paging security, you may want to ask if he even acted on his threat, before asking why the threat didn't materialise; it seems that his data-scroll never shifted the entire scene.

The main characters were all making appallingly bad decisions. Namah's rather poor pitch to a sensationalist presenter, Lilith's decision to split up in the tower. They were all just as stupid deciding to return home. Bast is perhaps the worst offender going up against O'Naicul the way he did. Their decisions were totally infantile...oh wait they're kids.

Also when stating that the GNS hasn't yet established Namah's status as Calah's illegitimate child, you'd better double check.
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Re: Volume 3: Intentions Entwined. Discussion Thread!

Postby Twilight on Mon Feb 04, 2013 7:22 pm

kids =/= stupid. Especially on Lilith's case XD

What I'm trying to get at is that you should never assume anything. A vague line of dialog here and there about any given subject is not substantial evidence of a tangible element in a story. You can speculate, sure, but you can't simply decide something is true just because it makes sense to ya.

Like that whole thing with Boore paging security. Why he failed to actually page security (or if he did, how did it take them so long to get there that Namah had the time to spiel and leave) completely escapes me. If he was really concerned about his sandwich, why not page? And if he wasn't all that concerned enough to page then why *****?

Also, I never said Namah wasn't illegitimate. I'm merely pointing out that a lot of people seem to know about her in general. The GNS has never really established that Namah had been limited to the uppermost level of the tower in secrecy.

If it wasn't for Prelude, Namah's history would actually be kind of vague and we wouldn't know what her deal is. The GNS treats her character as though everyone is ok with her presence and don't question it whatsoever. Not when Lilith and Namah are all torn and beaten, running around in public in V1. Not when word goes out to grab the Viscaunts daughters, which travels across the whole city and into underground dealers. In that context, it's kind of surprising that Boore didn't respond with "yeah? Everyone knows about you, who cares?" XD;;

I need to make a disclaimer here: I know it may look otherwise. But I'm not actually trying to make you think Dreamkeepers sucks or that you should stop liking or, or that it's wrong to like it, or anything like that.

My aim is to point out these kinds of things so we have less fanboys and more fans that are a bit more self aware and may be able to provide David with actual, constructive feedback that actually helps him rather than George Lucasing him into thinking everything he does is gold. Logic is a huge part of storytelling, and if any author (not just Dave) continues to write a story with so many logic gaps, eventually nothing would make sense any more and the story would suffer greatly from it. That said, in a couple of days (for the sake of relevancy), I'll be starting a critique thread where people can hop in and actively discuss the problems which ARE present and ARE very prominent so that David can be made more aware of this stuff and genuinely improve subsequent volumes. Don't blind yourself to the problems of something you like, because you risk truly spoiling it by not helping it improve upon its weaknesses (Why do you think I ***** so much about it? XD)
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Re: Volume 3: Intentions Entwined. Discussion Thread!

Postby DanWithTheHat on Mon Feb 04, 2013 9:26 pm

Ice4smaster wrote:As for folowing the story, i've had no issues at all. It's that theres tons of things going on now, as the whole city is like a bee hive, but if the story will focuse to the towers and the kids meet up, it be less "scattered" as then i can see the Torika, kids, and maybe Nightmares focused at instead every Protagonist individually as wee seen now. And yes wanna see V4 asap XD if a year time, it be very sweet hehe <3
Looking back at what I typed on Friday, I think I ended up typing something different than what I really wanted to say. :oops: I followed all of the major events that occurred fine. It was just a a couple pages here or there that had me scratching my head a bit which are also the same scenes that have been brought up on here during the last few days.

What I was trying to get at was that because there are so many individual stories going on at once, it is easier to leave out important details which ends up causing these "logic holes" in a story. Thinking about it know, there really isn't a better way to show that many things going on at once in a comic book so I don't know why I blamed it on that. O.o

Like you said though, Volume 4 looks to be set up to have less individual stories going on due to the decision to get together in a group again at the end of Vol 3. This should give Dave a better opportunity to improve on this aspect of his story writing and minimize these logic holes. :D
Mr Aerospace wrote:The main characters were all making appallingly bad decisions. Namah's rather poor pitch to a sensationalist presenter, Lilith's decision to split up in the tower. They were all just as stupid deciding to return home. Bast is perhaps the worst offender going up against O'Naicul the way he did. Their decisions were totally infantile...oh wait they're kids.
I think the only good decision made in this volume was the decision by the guards to go to the strip club and get wasted after getting fired. XD
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Re: Volume 3: Intentions Entwined. Discussion Thread!

Postby Mr Aerospace on Tue Feb 05, 2013 2:02 am

Hang on Twi, I never said kids are stupid! Making infantile decisions and being infantile have very distinct definitions!

Nor have I ever said that the story was flawless. I'm not trying to defend the case of the Missing Vincent Plot (MVP), but rather attempting to isolate it from the studio scene, while simultaneously trying to point out the logical flaws in arguments linking the two issues together. Upon reflection I was getting carried away and wasn't actually arguing either point very well at all.

So if we accept that there is an MVP, then that should override the cascading effect that Vincent being missing in the studio scene creates: Vincent is missing, therefore Namah must have dropped him off to the twins first, which is impossible because the twins have been kidnapped. :evil: (I was originally attempting to argue that Vincent not being seen in the studio does not mean that he is no longer in Namah's care, therefore invalidating the whole cascade.) If we then extend the MVP all the way to the end of Volume 3, while it is still in play, it can be over-ridden by the all-inclusive statement Namah makes about everything going wrong. Although, without having a specific reference to the MVP this actually doesn't prove anything or give any reasonable conclusion to the issue at all.
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Re: Volume 3: Intentions Entwined. Discussion Thread!

Postby BigEasy on Tue Feb 05, 2013 2:56 am

I wonder if maybe we aren't being a little hasty declaring there to be plot holes, at least concerning Vincent/Cuddles and especially Operation Guillotine.

Operation Guillotine is not important to the story. Because it hasn't happened yet. The lay reader knows that it is an important operation and that it represents a shift in strategy for the resistance. This is enough for now. The test comes when the operation finally takes place in the pages of future volumes. If, by that point, the lay readers have no idea what is happening, then Dave will have failed in his narrative. He still has time.

Much the same for the Vincent plot hole. Namah and Lilith have not had any "screen time" together since they split up. We don't yet know what exactly happened. There is still time from a narrative standpoint to address this.

Then again, the issue with the twins creates an absolute cavalcade of questions in its own right. Lilith and Namah did not know that Jeneviv and Kalei were missing. Were they just not paying attention, or has it only been a few days/weeks? How did Nabonidus get hold of them and to what purpose? How did Scuttles find Jeneviv? When did the resistance recover Kalei? Why are they glowing? Prelude offers us nothing on their current condition. Dave has a lot on his plate to address these issues, here's hoping for a few answers in Vol 4!
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