Prelude

Have a take on the latest Prelude strip? Share it in here! Just notice an enticing story hint in one of the graphic novels? Speculate away! Share feedback, large and small about your DreamKeepers experience. But beware, this forum may contain story spoilers.

Re: Prelude

Postby ezioauditore97 on Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:38 pm

Mr Aerospace wrote:I'm not going to argue against Namah being a bratty little hell-raiser. Whether the chaos trailing behind her is intentional on her behalf or not, the fact is her behaviour is a moot point in the argument of whether she causes her own problems. Namah's imprisonment in her room (alone) isn't a result of her behaviour, but a result of her existence. Good (or docile) behaviour won't change the guards orders to keep her in there, so how is anyone let alone a child supposed to react to that?

Conversely, Namah has displayed talents and interests that are neither encouraged or developed in a positive way at all. Having television as her No.1 source of stimuli maybe an easy fix, but it is just plain wrong, and the whole plumbing incident is a prime example of the neglectful way Namah is kept too. In a matter of minutes, Namah was able to not only discover how plumbing tools work, but to apply her intuition in a creative, albeit accidentally destructive way. Of course that isn't normal for a child...that is exceptionally gifted! But instead of recognising the incident as a childish mistake in an unsupervised location with tools that shouldn't have been there, they neglect to see the intelligence and talent behind it and deem Namah to be a danger. The answer wasn't to remove the tools from her completely, but to find a way to let her use them in a constructive and safe way in a carefully supervised environment. Instead, she ended up with more punishment for a mistake; being put back in another room without a toilet. Huh?

Twilight wrote:Namah is told that being good gets rewarded, she rejects this concept:

Now, you may say that Namah rejects the concept here, but at the end of the day she actually does respond in a positive way. TWICE. And what does she receive as a reward? Being LOCKED up in her room. Also, if Ms. M trusted Namah, why'd she make a bet with Woods on how long it would take for Namah to run away? So, tell me again, who betrayed whom?


Finally, this has nothing to do with the above arguments, but;

I interpret Namah's "I came this close to liking you" not as dissing the pun, but as a reaction to Bill's poor form of explaining the joke. If that's the case, I tend to agree with her.

That is one very good point you have there!I agree!
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Re: Prelude

Postby Twilight on Wed Jan 16, 2013 4:30 pm

You're ignoring that Namah is a child though. Kids that age do not have a concept of that which is missing in their lives. Especially in the obsessive state she does. This isn't because children are stupid, mind you, it is literally because their brains have not yet developed those kinds of capacities, it -is- a physiological fact.

Since the instinct is probably to argue, "Well, it's a fictional story and she's a gifted kid that could be considered mentally adult," then I have to bring up that an adult would actually be able to figure things out and make a better situation out of it.

Namah has a history of actively betraying the adults on a regular basis. Mrs. M gave Namah the chance to show another facet of cooperation by allowing her to walk with her to the garden, and she made the bet with Woods because they have experienced Namah's deceit time and again. She wasn't betraying Namah's trust, she was giving Namah the opportunity to show that she COULD be trusted, while fully expecting her to do the opposite. And Namah did do the opposite as predicted and only budged because Mrs. M is the one that has learned how to nudge Namah by offering her TV and snacks and stuff, because it's the only thing that keeps her satiated.

Keep in mind that putting a lock on the door wasn't a result of her behavior that day but because of the crazy mess she had caused beforehand, which Namah did cause entirely apropos.

Namah's behavior about 95% of the time are all the traits of Conduct Disorder, with the only missing element of lack of intelligence, so she's bordering on Anti-Social Personality Disorder, which she wouldn't actually get to until roughly GNS age which is when it actually develops. But it -is- there.

So let's look at a couple of hypothetical scenarios here:

One, you say that it's not so much the right to freedom, but that Namah just really wants her father's love.

First off, Lilith doesn't get any kind of love either. She exists and he lets her exist. Other than that, she's really just a political tool. Yet, you don't see Lilith going around being anarchic all over the place.

Secondly, what IF Namah did get her hug? Would that change things? No probably not. She'd still be the crazy, destructive child she is. She obviously HATES being controlled and wants everything to be on her terms, so if Calah were to say "Hey Namah, stop doing that destructive thing you're doing" she's very likely to go "F-U!"

So then we come back to the other apparent reason she's so insane. Let's say that she does get out of the tower and get to go do stuff. What then?
What would she do with that kind of freedom? realize that the world isn't actually nearly as fun as it is on TV and proceed to try and make it more exciting -in her own way-?

We do see that once she does get out in the GNS she seems to not give two craps at all. She doesn't try to run away, she doesn't seem impressed by anything at all unless it's active conflict (like Mace being a runty trouble maker) she doesn't even try to get back at Calah by exposing all the things about her on instinct. She's just bored.

She seems to think the world sucks and is retroactively trying to get her from every angle it can without realizing that other people have it worse than she does, and even if good things happen to her she decides she doesn't care and takes it for granted, for example, she got to stay with Lilith for a bit and proceeded to do this:

Her justification? None.

Which actually brings up something else. Everyone (both audience and in-story) is too busy paying attention to Namah's loud antics that they fail to notice that Lilith is the one who's truly miserable here. Namah may get in trouble and all that, but she does get to have her fun when she goes on a rampage. We've seen her manically enjoy herself all the time. But has anyone ever seen Lilith so much as giggle? beyond just a few smiles here and there?

Has anyone noticed that where everyone is always paying attention to Namah in some way or form, Lilith goes largely ignored by everyone in the tower, everyone at school (with the addition of actually being mean to her), Lilith even goes a lot more ignored by Calah than Namah does. Namah doesn't even have to deal with him at all, where Lilith actually has to get repeatedly told to her face "kid, I'm busy and you're unimportant to me" in political jargon.

And yet, Lilith isn't out to victimize herself and cause other people misery. If anything, she's constantly trying to maker her own crappy existence better by testing out what works and what doesn't, and it's become pretty apparent to her that being nice is the way to go in most cases.

So you have a kid that doesn't actually know what they're missing and wouldn't actually be obsessed with it, regularly causing misery and pains to others and herself, circuitously making her situation worse. And you have a kid in just about the same situation but with the added element of going out to some place to be treated like crap and then come back to an isolation where people ignore her because they have to be behind the kid flinging knives at people.

if Namah is so intelligent as people believe, why doesn't she genuinely try to not be so destructive? Genuinely showing some upstanding behavior would pay off amazingly well in the long run, and this is something that's been explained to her by Mrs. M, and I think Lilith in a couple of places, and even the guards tell her "look it's not that we WANT to do this stuff to you it's just that you really don't give us any choice sometimes."

It doesn't explain or justify her destructive tendencies when Lilith herself isn't.
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Re: Prelude

Postby AnimeFan18 on Wed Jan 16, 2013 6:41 pm

Twilight wrote:First off, Lilith doesn't get any kind of love either. She exists and he lets her exist. Other than that, she's really just a political tool. Yet, you don't see Lilith going around being anarchic all over the place.
secretly give lilith loads of sugar and see what happens :lol:

Twilight wrote: so if Calah were to say "Hey Namah, stop doing that destructive thing you're doing" she's very likely to go "F-U!"
i would like to see that :twisted:
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Re: Prelude

Postby ezioauditore97 on Wed Jan 16, 2013 11:03 pm

If Namah was normal then she would not be as memorable or unique you know so I think I can have some protagonists that I root for but are not perfect and have some realistic problems and some exagerrated problems becuase this is entertainment after all.You are also forgetting that Jack in ME2 is similar although her problems are not exagerrated.Namah was just treated as satanic at birth and during her early days so the Viscount and his guards suffer the consequences.
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Re: Prelude

Postby Twilight on Thu Jan 17, 2013 12:17 am

Actually, Jack is a horrendously written character. But this thread isn't about Mass Effect.

And look, again, I'm not saying Namah is unlikable. I've stated time and again that she's plenty charming with lots of personality. What I'm saying is that she's genuinely, clinically psychotic.

When it comes right down to it. It's not Namah's problems that people like about her. It's her personality, and she's got -plenty- of personality. If Dave had made the choise to make Lilith the tower kid, and have Namah be the one going to school, people would still like Namah better because Namah's loud and intense and noticeable.

It's perfectly fine to like Namah. Just realize that just because you like her, as a character she is very toxic to herself and those around her, and that she takes everything good in her life very much for granted.

Like her all you want, but don't pretend she's a justified saint, because for every unfair thing in her life, there are dozens of things she has earned entirely on her own by going out of her way to wreck everything she touches.
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Re: Prelude

Postby Mr Aerospace on Thu Jan 17, 2013 1:21 am

I do not concur with your multiple diagnoses Dr Twilight M.D.
In my medical opinion as a short term psychiatric researcher, I have found that many of the symptoms that Namah Calah displays are actually reminiscent of cases that occurred in southern areas of the United States of America from between 1851 and 1855. I believe the correct diagnosis is in fact early onset drapetomania. In this particular case the patient is prone to running and I therefore suggest that her big toes are removed to prevent these undesirable symptoms from recurring.

--
No, seriously I am really taking offense at the way Namah is being labelled with a multitude of mental disorders. The pseudo-scientific approach of diagnosis through symptoms alone while ignoring the causative effect that external factors may have is particularly rank, because if I were to accept that as a sound practice, I must not only accept my brother's high-school diagnosis, but also accept that the relatively obscure and incredibly complex scientific field of microbiological dynamics is being lead by that same retard.
Yeah, I'm taking this personally now.
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Re: Prelude

Postby Twilight on Thu Jan 17, 2013 1:36 am

Eh, don't start taking it personally, it really isn't worth it.

But for your benefit, say she doesn't actually have anything wrong with her mental operatives.

She's still a very toxic character that takes everything good in her life for granted and everything she ever does is, whether intentionally or unintentionally, making her situation worse and worse as per her own actions.

She very much thrives in chaos, and that's something that will eventually bite her.
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Re: Prelude

Postby Mr Aerospace on Thu Jan 17, 2013 2:14 am

My argument is that Namah may or may not have all her faculties at 100% and determining whether there is something internally wrong with Namah (via psychiatric evaluation) cannot and should not even be attempted while she remains in a familiar environment.
Before any conclusion can be made, you must change the environment (which must include geographic and social parameters) and determine whether exactly the same symptoms recur. Then, (because we're ensuring that we do rigorous scientific testing) you gotta do it again and again in different environments and with double bluffs to catch out biases from the test subject until you are absolutely certain that the suspect behaviour is isolated and naturally repetitive. If not, then the theory is false.
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Re: Prelude

Postby Twilight on Thu Jan 17, 2013 2:31 am

She was in different environments in V1 and 2 and she still reacted with a dissociation of convention and went out of her way to pester other people.

In Mace's case, he didn't know the rock was gonna phase through Wisp, he was trying to help Namah and it unwittingly backfired. Even after an apology, Namah still felt the need to push his buttons afterwards.

In Whip's case, he was made uncomfortable by her treating him like an item of luxury and she didn't seem to care about that either. She only got distracted by the other stuff that was happening.

I know it was a case of Mace prioritizing his own interests, but when he showed up asking "Hey it's Lilith ok?" Namah disregarded the fact that Lilith had JUST gotten eaten by a giant monster and only lived because she was extremely lucky, and was therefore subject of greater concerned than Namah's pre-established OK-ness, and responded with the equivalent of "hey, pay attention to me"

You haven't yet read V3, but her shenanigans cause trouble and her violent tendencies take a more solid root as she realizes she actually enjoys it, but I'll let you read that on your own when you get there.
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Re: THIS IS DEFINITELY NO LONGER ABOUT Prelude

Postby Mr Aerospace on Thu Jan 17, 2013 7:45 am

Aha, correct! And it is at this point in time where comparisons between the GNS and prelude can begin and your arguments start to become validated. This is also the point where I commence agreeing with you about Namah on a few points.

HOWEVER...and this is possibly why we are arguing so much about this...we cannot use information about Namah that has derived from data in the GNS to retrospectively make an argument or judgement against her character in the preludes. So, while the GNS may prove that Namah has always been psychotic, had drapetomania, conduct disorder, antisocial personality disorder, any other label that sticks or any combination of the above, that information is neither available nor valid for us to use in the preludes in order for us to make the same conclusions.
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