Mass Effect 3 - General Discussion

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Re: Mass Effect 3 - General Discussion

Postby Avolendi on Mon Mar 19, 2012 7:10 pm

After reading all that I figured I might be allowed a minor comment...
First, interesting signatures most of you suddenly have ^^
Secondly, that were some damn walls of text there O.o

At least this way I'm getting an alternative way to reading the story (and annotations) on ME3
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Re: Mass Effect 3 - General Discussion

Postby SuperVaderMan on Mon Mar 19, 2012 7:25 pm

Truthfully speaking I haven't played ME3 yet, so there's my reasoning for not knowing every specific detail concerning the whole geth/quarian deal. I've just been going off of videos, hearsay, and this thread.

I was just annoyed that yet another little tidbit that they took the time to establish in the previous games has been cast aside in lieu of the story they wanted to force.
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Re: Mass Effect 3 - General Discussion

Postby Sorrel on Mon Mar 19, 2012 7:27 pm

Hooray for discussion! 8D Yeah, if anyone else has something to say, feel free to speak up. I don't think a few people monopolizing the conversation is what we want XD

At any rate, this is an interesting argument. I don't think this should dissolve into a Let's Bash Games thread, so let me try to analyze what's happening here. So far, I feel like this whole discussion results from to two technical problems, both inherent to playing the last in a line of games uniquely tailored to the player's choices.

Problem One is the fact that a lot of these major ME3 plot points happen off-screen, and Shepard is "filled in" by lines of exposition. Even though the explanations are sound, some people walk away from it with the feeling of "This sounds scripted" because they would not have predicted some of these scenarios after just finishing ME2. This leads into Problem Two: Because of the thousands of story variables compiled over the past two games, how do you make a third game that takes them all into account, believably, and neatly wraps up all the subplots?

I'll use Tali's loyalty mission in ME2 as an example since we seem to be on the Quarians at the moment. So, let's say you've just finished the trial, preventing or enabling Tali's exile from her homeland and giving your advice to the Admiralty Board in regards to the Geth.

If you go Renegade for that mission, get your squaddie exiled (or not) and tell the Admirals "Go get'em!" then yeah, the war scenario for ME3 works fine -- your own actions point toward that conclusion. But if you Paragon the crap out of everything, then you clear Tali's name (or not) and tell the Admirals to forget about the Geth and focus on preparing for the Reapers, then you would be right to expect to start ME3 and find the Quarians leaving the Geth alone, in favor of negotiating with other races to shelter their civilians while their military helps bolster everyone's Air Force. Maybe there would be factions like Admiral Xan and Han'Gerrel lobbying for war and gaining lots of support, but it would fall to Shepard once again to stop things from falling apart. So when people start up ME3 and find that the Quarians have gone to war anyway, they feel a little taken aback. How could they have predicted Shepard would be ignored? (It's not like any other NPCs do XD)

Now I may be biased, because I personally remain firmly in the "show, don't tell" camp, so in my ideal world my Shepard would be there to watch the story unfold regardless. But particularly in the case of a Paragon Shepard, since that's the one where ME3's Quarian behavior can't take player choice into account, I feel it really would have been better to begin the game closer to ME2's ending status quo, and let the player watch as their hard work is threatened/derailed by Admiral Xan's creepy science projects. (Which would have been very rewarding for a Renegade, watching their choices be advanced to their logical conclusions.)

So basically the way Bioware handled it wasn't... wrong, per se. It just could have been better, and I think a lot more people would enjoy it if they had done it just a bit differently.

I completely understand why some would consider it well-handled, because the explanations are there if you look for them and they make sense when you think about it. And I can also understand why others would think Bioware dropped the ball, because the fact that the story takes a sudden sharp turn for the worse seems to come out of nowhere, and is then "justified" by a bunch of lines of exposition.

I guess this is just a case where people can talk and talk about the pros and cons of how it was handled vs. how it could have been handled. Which I suppose is what this thread is for, in a way. We just need to try to keep things calm in here.
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Re: Mass Effect 3 - General Discussion

Postby Lord of the Forest on Mon Mar 19, 2012 7:47 pm

I find it hard to say anything right now without being led into all caps or downright insulting the game, the species I have grown to admire, the characters I had grown to adore, and the fact that everything I had expected (with the exception of multiplayer) felt like pipe dreams. So perhaps if I do it quickly and bluntly a wall of text will be avoided.

Firstly, I hate quarians now. I didn't before, far from it, but I do now. I advised them to not make any aggressive maneuvers against the Geth because the Reapers were coming and they would need to prepare and even cooperate. They flat out rejected that. My input in that part of ME2 is now WORTHLESS. My input as a player is no longer needed because apparently there needed to be a war conflict between geth and quarians for some reason in Mass Effect 3. So they retconned my decision and replaced with half-assed excuses. Speaking of which, I had allowed Tali to be exiled so that perhaps she could stay on the Normandy with me in the next game. Instead, despite being exiled, she is given a position as admiral for her knowledge of the geth.

WHAT.

WHAT?
WHAT.

So now I hate quarians. I flat out told them (something I was OVERJOYED to have in Mass Effect 3) that I would NOT save them from the geth because of their ridiculously stupid, script driven mistakes anymore since they were not only untrustworthy, but war mongering, stupid, and a nuisance. They finally complied and I united them with the geth. FINALLY. If it had come to it, I would have certainly sided the geth.

Mass Effect 3 forced me to hate quarians and I will never forgive it for that or fore settling that conflict with synthetics (Geth) and organics (Quarians) establishing a long lasting (as is supposed at the time) peace between one another AND THEN DELIBERATELY TELLING ME AT THE END OF THE GAME BY A SPACE CHILD THAT EVERY 50,000 YEARS AN ARMADA OF ORGANIC MILKSHAKE ROBOTS COME IN AND DESTROY A WIDESPREAD GALACTIC CIVILIZATION AND TURN THEM INTO ANOTHER BATCH OF SLURPEE DEATH MACHINES BECAUSE EVENTUALLY ALL LIFE WOULD BE WIPED OUT BY SYNTHETICS.

AND THEN THE SPACE CHILD FORCES ME TO CHOOSE THREE HORRIBLE GAME ENDINGS THAT EFFECTIVELY DESTROY EVERYTHING I KNOW AND LOVE INSTEAD OF POINTING TO THE GETH AND THE QUARIANS AS AN EXAMPLE AS TO WHY THE SPACE CHILD AND THE REAPERS ARE WRONG AND THEN REFUSING TO COMPLY AND INSTEAD BATTLE IT OUT LIKE IT WAS MEANT TO BE.

FUDGE. I WROTE A WALL OF TEXT.
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Re: Mass Effect 3 - General Discussion

Postby Sorrel on Mon Mar 19, 2012 7:51 pm

D8

...Oh my. That is a lot of capitals. Let's keep it cool, everybody.

Might I recommend that if anyone finds themselves getting worked up over their post, that they save it in a text file and come back to it later? This seems like it could easily become a polarizing issue here.
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Re: Mass Effect 3 - General Discussion

Postby Lord of the Forest on Mon Mar 19, 2012 7:59 pm

Apologies. I think I have to leave this thread alone after all that. The wounds are still too recent.
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Re: Mass Effect 3 - General Discussion

Postby Sorrel on Mon Mar 19, 2012 8:01 pm

Lord of the Forest wrote:My input in that part of ME2 is now WORTHLESS. My input as a player is no longer needed because apparently there needed to be a war conflict between geth and quarians for some reason in Mass Effect 3.

What I'm getting from this is that because the Quarians react the same way, regardless of how you played the previous game, you feel maligned because their course of action did not mesh with your player choices. Is that right?

My next question is that, if Tali had not had a loyalty mission in ME2 (meaning you could not point the Admirals in either direction, and Tali had no chance of being exiled) would you still feel the Geth-Quarian war to be unjustified?

NINJA EDIT: Oops, just saw your last post. Sorry. You don't have to answer that question if you don't want to think about it. XD
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Re: Mass Effect 3 - General Discussion

Postby SuperVaderMan on Mon Mar 19, 2012 8:08 pm

Well sure, if the player had no input into the decision, then the player would have no reason to be upset over it because they had never been introduced to the problem in the first place.
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Re: Mass Effect 3 - General Discussion

Postby Sorrel on Mon Mar 19, 2012 8:15 pm

Okay, so then this particular problem stems from the technical issue of taking all relevant player choices into account. I can see that.

I wonder -- if Bioware does come out with a free story-patch DLC, that would set an interesting precedent. Gaming companies could theoretically release additional content that updates the core story of a game, either straight-up taking it in a new direction or just altering the way a story beat plays out. I personally find this an exciting idea.

How many authors look back on their published work and say "Oh God, that scene... so clunky. I wish I could re-write this part. I could do so much better now." For video games, the mechanics for this sort of revision is already there; it's the whole point of DLCs, with extra textures and missions and even whole new scenes. Developers could use it to update their stories if they think "Man, what if we'd done it this way..." after the fact.

It could be abused, of course, and there will inevitably be the George Lucas types who release silly, arbitrary changes that don't do much. But think of the possibilities if devs actually start using this to continuously hone their stories to near-perfection.

I think it sounds cool. And it would allow companies like Bioware to take story input from their fans and re-write the bits of the story that consistently snag people like Fore, who feel they've been slighted by the game mechanics. And the fact that DLCs are optional is a nice perk for those who are fine with it as-is.
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Re: Mass Effect 3 - General Discussion

Postby Chemical Cutthroat on Tue Mar 20, 2012 8:31 am

Yeah, what can I say, we’re all passionate about this series. We’ve invested five years of our lives into it and it’s fiction. I for one remember all sorts of tidbits, even the first game. I’ve had Garrus and Tali with me since the beginning, and it’s been great having them by my side through all three games.

I only got hot over the ending. Everything else was great for me…

I can’t get mad at the Quarians, as their actions are sadly justified when you really look at their mentality. I look at ME2 and your actions at Tali’s trial merely delaying the inevitable, not getting them to stand off completely. This is a people who have had what… 500 years to float around and be pissed off about losing their planet? Sure it was their fault, but 500 years of denial makes it fact to them. One rousing speech by Shepard isn’t going to change that whole race of people.

So I’m a little less pissed at them. I think it was stupid, but the galaxy is going to move on when I’m not involved in it. I look at the whole thing as Recruiting Tali, that was my goal, and that was the reason for my oratory. I managed to get her out of her jam without getting her exiled, and I was pleased with the outcome. But I don’t recall anyone standing around going, “Oh man, never going to go to war with those Geth!”

Quite the opposite, they were going to hold off… for now. That war was coming, all you did was delay it, and then Admiral Xan’s discovery while you were gone is what pushed them over the edge.


But that’s not something I had a problem with, I’m just… I dunno, justifying them when I probably shouldn’t?

The ending is what gets the RAGE. And I’m not a very rage-y person. Except for Angry Marines.

Err… anyway.

Yes, the ending sucked. It continues to make zero sense, and Bioware is on the record stating they are not ruling out changing the ending. Slowly, the conversation is going to focus on that.

Now that being said, who chose the ending where you blow up the Reapers? Because when I pulled the trigger on that, I sort of enjoyed it. More importantly though…

…the brief cutscene back in the rubble in London, where you see Shepard’s chest and N7 dog tags, and he takes a breath, and then the screen cuts out.

You guys saw that right? RIGHT?!

Also… Unlimited Ammo Carnifex. I’m going to keep harping on this till I’m either Dead or Proven Right. The first thing I did when I got on the Carnage Wheel (Citadel) was try and blow away one of the Keepers… yeah… didn’t work.

At least they gave me my favorite pistol. I love that hand cannon.
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